In the latest episode of the Grayling Media Podcast, CEO Heather Blundell sits down with award-winning producer and author Sam McAlister to explore the challenges of truth, trust, and tribes in today’s media landscape. Their discussion draws on Sam’s experience securing global exclusives, including the Newsnight Prince Andrew interview, and dives into the findings of Grayling’s new report, Truth, Trust and Tribes in a New Media Age, launched in partnership with More in Common.

Discover key trends shaping how Britons consume news, understand the truth, and engage with media. Download the full report here.

Full Transcript

 

00:00:00 Heather Blundell

Hello and welcome to the Grayling Media podcast. I’m Heather Blundell, Grayling UK CEO, and I’m delighted to be joined by the wonderful Sam McAllister. Sam is an award-winning producer, author, academic, TEDx Speaker who has personally secured global exclusives with figures including Prince Andrew and President Clinton. Her best-selling book Scoops, telling the inside story behind the extraordinary Newsnight interview with Prince Andrew, was picked up by Netflix and went on to top the global charts with Emmy and BAFTA nominations. Given Sam’s phenomenal track record in seeking out the truth and holding powerful people to account, I can think of no one better to explore Grayling media’s new report, Truth, Trust and Tribes in a New Media Age, launched today in partnership with More in Common. The report reveals striking trends in how Britain’s search for trusted information, how they understand the truth and how they engage with the media. Sam, welcome and thank you so much for joining me.

00:01:03 Sam McAlister

Thank you so much for inviting me, Heather.

00:01:03 Heather Blundell

And so before we get into the findings, I’d like to start, of course, with your own experience at Newsnight as a producer, I’d love to know what drives you to uncover the truth. And is it a curiosity, a desire to hold powerful people to account? Or is it something else.

00.01.22 Sam McAlister

I think really when it comes down to it, it’s a two things. The first thing obviously it is the job. So you’re attracted towards working in news in accountability areas where you’re holding powerful people to account. If you’re attracted to working at Newsnight, it’s kind of part of what it is. So in a sense it’s a self-selecting group when it comes to that. In terms of my own position within that my own personality and character, I would say that is a bit of a sort of an underdog, an outsider, you know, from a working class background from an East End market, people, parents left school at fourteen. I’m very attracted to the idea that we’re all equal. And obviously, sometimes that’s not the case, but I feel the pursuit of the truth and of tackling powerful people and positions of power is a wonderful way to equalise that space between power and reality, and so working at Newsnight for me, in a sense, was part of that personal interest and personal mission.

00:02:22 Heather Blundell

And Speaking of powerful people and forgive me but, men. How do you think they are able to get away with poor behaviour for so long and what is it about power, privilege or the structures that surround certain individuals that you think enable that?

00:02:29 Sam McAlister

I think really the thing about it is I mean you use the word tribes when you were discussing this report. In a sense, this is a power tribe. So you’re all in it together. Even if you don’t know each other directly, you’re not that works cross. They may have crossed on Epstein’s Island. They may have crossed at Oxbridge college. They may have crossed at a private members’ club. Your mummy and Daddy may know each other, but they cross in a way that means that people are profoundly interested in protecting, obviously, their own interests, but indirectly either deliberately or accidentally, the interests of all the people that mix in their sphere. So one person covering up bad behaviour means that another person’s bad behaviour is easier to cover, up to, and so in a sense some of it is maleficent and some of it is accidental, but it is all the people who are kind of accidentally in it together because they all have so much to lose.

00:03:36 Heather Blundell

Do you think post Epstein and do you think the tide is turning at all? I was quite interested in that story quite recently. The CEO of Nestle having to step down because of the undisclosed relationship.

00:03:49 Sam McAlister

You know it’s, you know, do do you think these these stories are always gonna eventually come out or do you still think there is a lot to uncover? I think there’s so much to uncover. I mean, the in case is a classic one. You know, only this week we’ve seen the effect on Sarah Ferguson. Have an e-mail from over a decade ago. Yeah. And we don’t know anybody really other than, obviously, Ghislaine Maxwell, who is incarcerated and Epstein’s obviously dead, but there’s no one incarcerated on this other than her, and ironically, she’s a woman. Yeah, and of course I’m not in any way saying that she did not behave appallingly and terribly, but no one for a second thinks there are not.

Many and several and perhaps 10s of very powerful individuals who have no doubt done terrible behaviour that may never come to any form of justice. So I think really the overarching fact is that the work of seeking the truth and of journalism and of holding powerful people to account is always always going to be ongoing and very, very difficult to achieve because of the wealth and mechanisms and protections in place to make sure that those secrets and those facts never see the light of.

00:05:03 Heather Blundell

Do you miss it a bit? Do you miss hustling for those stories?

00:05:07 Sam McAlister

Do you know why I do not miss it at all? I think because I was fortunate enough to work in an amazing programme which savvy no longer exists in the way that it did when I was working there with extraordinary people like Jeremy Paxman. I mean, you know what? What a man.

00:05:09 Heather Blundell

Right.

00:05:23 Sam McAlister

And then obviously to find yourself in the middle of this sort of media storm, yeah.

00:05:28 Heather Blundell

How are you going to top it? What do you do next?

00:05:33 Sam McAlister

So I think, really.I sort of peaked. Yes, I stayed for another year after that and I was actually very unwell with COVID. So I came back and I just thought, I’m just gonna have to take a run at my solid belief that the story of how this happened and I’m the only person that can tell it has a market and is important and that I want to tell it. Yeah. And so I had to choose to stay and carry on the job that I loved with amazing people and use my an extraordinary team, very gifted.

They don’t need me at all, you know, or chase that idea that perhaps I should throw, throw the dice and see what happens. If I write my book, which I thought three people would read.

00:06:13 Heather Blundell

Well, thank God you did. And Speaking of the truth, our research shows that Britons don’t believe in a single version of the truth and only a third believe in objective facts. Do you think we’re in the midst of a truth crisis?

00:06:30 Sam McAlister

Yeah, I think we are. And I think in a sense it’s our own fault, all of us. I think that really there was an arrogance around the idea of the truth that it was just sort of a thing that certain organisations or certain people could give to the masses, and that was a very privileged position. And of course now the idea of the truth is kind of looked at as something that is far more difficult to ascertain. I used to be a criminal defence barrister. I mean, you would have 6 witnesses to the same crime telling six different versions. And so for each of those individuals, they think they’re telling the truth.

But what actually happened is so much harder to piece together. So with the diversification of the media, was social media with people being more naturally suspicious, which in some ways is a good thing? They’re feeling empowered.

But I think finding the truth is something I struggle with as well as a trained journalist and lawyer. It’s hard to do, and it’s actually quite a hard responsibility, and I think a lot of people are quite angry that they feel in some way the truth has been kept from them and your findings reflect that kind of cynicism. That stuff is being filled.

00:07:40 Heather Blundell

Traditional media distorts the truth and is Speaking of filtering the truth to fit an agenda. And what’s your experience? Do you think that’s fair?

00:07:51 Sam McAlister

I think it is fair. I think that ultimately I take a robust view on it. You know, it’s just a fallacy to believe that there is one version of how things happen.

And what you can do is you can be honest and say, look, we’re an impartial organisation like the BBC where we are trying our hardest to reach the best truth that we can find. Yeah, we’re looking to be impartial. We’re gathering evidence. We’re looking at resources. We’re trying to have an even hand. We’re doing our absolute best to give you a version of what happened.

That is as real and authentic as possible, but sometimes we get it wrong and can we get to 100%? Or maybe we can get to 95. If we had said that we can get you to 95. Perhaps people would have more compassion and understanding of the 5% that sometimes goes wrong. So I think it would be misleading to give the impression that organisations do not come with the characteristics of the people that run them. Humans. Yeah, who have obviously views and opinions and look at things that matter and don’t matter according to their personal answers.

Are people trying to find an objective truth in the media? Of course many are. Has it now become a situation in which there are lots of different versions according to political leanings, or who’s funding you, or who your audience is? Yes. So I think that the way that that has happened means that people are even more suspicious as they can look at one story and find four versions where they used to only be able to find one.

00:09:19 Heather Blundell

Yeah. And you spoke about the BBC, of which you obviously have a, you know, deep knowledge and understanding of and they’re constantly critical.

00:09:27 Sam McAlister

That’s just, you know, not being impartial, particularly by political parties. If you were, how would you be advising those to address that? I think The thing is that in a sense, you would always think you were doing a good job when you were screened out by both sides.

So you know you could put out a report that you thought was very even handed and you could have the Labour Party calling up and, you know, complaining about it. And the Conservative Party and now it would be reform as well, you know. Yeah, you could put out something to do with the situation in Gaza, which you thought was super even handed, and you’d have 100 complaints on one side saying that you were pro-Palestinian and then 100 on the other side saying you were pro Israeli. So in a sense, the sweet spot is when everyone’s complaining about you. And I think that the BBC needs to be robust on saying we have trained journalists who are looking for that impartiality, who are trying to report in difficult circumstances and trust the audience to draw their own influences and to learn from that journalism rather than try and direct them to a particular way of looking at it. But 50% of complaints about one side and the other. Whatever the story was, that would always be the case, and I think that’s quite a robust thing to kind of try and aim the frame for. Did you did that have to be a key consideration when you were booking news night about how to get sort of balanced opinions? Ohh 100% and I think you know we used to get ourselves in all kinds of contortions where if someone says the sky is blue. We need someone to say this guy’s robot, and I seen, particularly over climate change, that became a very difficult issue.

00:10:54 Heather Blundell

Yeah.

00:10:59 Sam McAlister

Because you were in a position at one stage where it actually, factually, in the news cycle made sense in the early days of conversations about climate change. It was contentious. Yeah. And so it made sense at that early juncture to say, well, if we have someone on saying, we’re going to die, we need someone on to say, ohh, well, we’re not going to. And you’ve made this up.

But as the argument changes, as the knowledge changes, what’s important is that the journalism moves to that. Otherwise it can become quite corruptive. And so when you are the person who is like, making those decisions, if five years ago you needed someone to say we don’t believe in climate change.

What you might need now is someone to say we believe in climate change, but we think it’s moving at a slower pace. Yeah, that could be the version that you need for balance. Yeah. It’s not about having polar opposites. It’s about having nuance within the frame of the current debate. But being really mindful that you must not just bring your own views to that debate because, of course, a liberal media person will likely believe in climate change. Yeah, and so they would naturally be sort of disparaging towards someone who didn’t.

00:12:07 Heather Blundell

Yeah, balancing all those things is really complex. And the BBC has hard, hard job in doing so. What about annoying people like us who put clients up? Who are, you know, business leaders who are normally have to be? I mean, never normally have to present themselves as a political. Does that did that present a challenge in terms of news like when people wouldn’t pick a lane or answer questions properly.

00:12:30 Sam McAlister

Yes, absolutely. And that would be something we would struggle with in doing business coverage to be honest. That occurs when you have an individual on. We don’t do conditions on questions. We understand they have an area of expertise, but largely how it goes in news is you come and you say we’ve got this great new report. We want to talk about respectfully. We don’t give it to about your report here.

But you know there’s a battle. And so all we care about is a news line and something that is news relevant. And so when a CEO is offered, and if it was your wonderful self and you said, well, do you know what The thing is? I want to talk about this report. And of course, the first thing I’m going to say to you, which you know, because you’re a a brilliant individual, is truth.

Trump, that’s my first thought. Yeah, of course. The first thing I’m gonna I’ll say you is about Trump. Yeah. You talk about truth. Well, you know, obviously, truth and Trump, that’s the big issue now.

If you are not willing to do that respectfully, then you shouldn’t go and use. That is not because it’s a news programme.

So that merry dance between the needs of the business and the facts and respect that you need to show respectfully to a democracy with free speech and open journalism, which I know we all love. Or in that situation you just have to take a hit on it, because otherwise you’re asking for something that is wrong to ask for.

00:13:54 Heather Blundell

And I’m going to you very kindly contributed to our report and I’m just going to read one of your quotes so we can unpack it a little bit.

“And people took the truth for granted for many years, and now the truth has become a luxury item.

If you care about the truth, you’ll have to pay for it. The future of the media will involve recalibrating around people who realise something fundamental will be lost if we don’t bring resources together around ideals that matter.”

Could you expand on the idea of bringing resources to that around ideals that matter and what’s that look like in such a fragmented media and political age?

00:14:32 Sam McAlister

course, that quote was quite good actually.

I think the fact is that really when you ask people, you know, I talk about working at Newsnight, I say I worked at the BBC and obviously there are some so many amazing products in that World Channel 4 News. I would say to people ohh Newsnight and they say we love Newsnight. It’s so important and then the next question I would ask and I know it’s annoying and slightly obnoxious would be when was the last time you watched?

Now?

And that’s the real problem here is that there were certain vanguard certain standards of journalism, whether you like Newsnight or not. Yet you have this day programme, Channel 4 News.

You consume the guardian, the FT, the Telegraph, whatever your tribe is. And there was kind of like an assumption that those things would exist forever. Well, not anymore.

You know, we’ve seen Newsnight changed, Channel 4 News is still out there doing its thing, news programmes are falling aside all the time, budgets are slashed, the newspapers print editions are diminishing. So really I think it is a matter of if you care about these prosaic ideals, you need to put your your money where your mouth is. Yeah. And so.

The truth being a luxury product is a luxury price. You need to buy that newspaper, because otherwise that journalist you admire, The Sunday Times, you don’t have a job. Amazing work won’t have a job and you need to watch news tonight because otherwise the commissioning editor will be looking at the figures and going ohh no one watches anymore and it is gone. Yeah. So I think we need to look at the truth.

And use as something that we care about and that we directly literally invest in as individuals who have the power with the pound to make a difference to what broadcasting and journalism looks like.

00:16:14 Heather Blundell

How important is it to you to use her? Consume lots of different news sources? We I mean I remember around and you and I have talked about this before that you know you called Brexit but so many didn’t because they existed within their echo chamber and they can’t believe that something on either side would possibly happen. It’s almost like, you know, perhaps who have guilty pleasures in terms of what we watch and sometimes we watch things that are completely ridiculous and they and so that we can send this saying I can’t leave, you know, the far right is saying this or sometimes we exist in our own echo chambers or only Consume the news that we agree with. So how important do you think it is to just get a variety of sources to inform an opinion?

00:16:52 Sam McAlister

I think it’s crucial and actually I find people that agree with you very boring. Yeah. I mean, how boring is that? So when ex first started, for example, everyone I knew was following all the people that agreed with them. Yeah. I didn’t follow you. That don’t even with I followed all.

Finding out what the argument is doesn’t mean you agree with it.

And I think that what’s really important in your consumption of media as well is to see what the other argument is. I mean, I used to teach public speaking to like school kids. And the first thing I would do to them is I say, you know, put your hand up if you think animal testing is great and you stand there. And if you think it’s bad, stand there. And then I’d be like, OK, all the people that think it’s bad. I want you to give me 5 minutes on random testing is great.

And in a sense, that simple mechanism is what we really need. They’re able to think of other sides, not necessarily agree with them, but understand the arguments that’s powerful for ourselves to, you know, keep advancing ourselves intellectually. And what it’s actually really crucial for in this time of discord and people being very polarised is that when you do have a disagreement with someone in you know your community or in your business, that you can respectfully disagree with them because you’ve had the respect of taking time to understand their point of view. Yeah. And I think that really when we started conflating understanding different views with agreeing with them, that became quite dangerous and people didn’t want to learn about other people’s views for fear of being seen as sick from list of. Yeah, you know, racist, transphobic. Yeah.

Whatever it was. Yeah. So there’s robust conversations between ourselves with the grace to look at other people’s arguments. I think is really, really important and it’s something that I take seriously.

00:18:44 Heather Blundell

How much does this sort of cancel culture concern you around people having an opinion?

00:19:05 Sam McAlister

Think people are right to be wary.

It’s a real problem and also it’s not foreseeable the way that it used to be. So in a sense, you know you can be a major CEO and it’s foreseeable that if you do something that affects your shareholders that they’re going to be annoyed at you. It’s obviously foreseeable that if you, you know, act in a way that’s in breach of your contract. That you could lose your job? Is it foreseeable that you’re at a Coldplay concert and suddenly your entire life, your family, your world, is front page news because you were hugging a colleague?

00:19:39 Heather Blundell

Probably not until recently. Hugging is generous.

00:19:46 Sam McAlister

Yes, it was an embrace. But I think the foreseeability of where it might come from, it could be something so random that you. You’re wearing a brand that the next day suddenly. Yeah. Yeah. It’s an anti-Semitic brand. Yeah, that so there are so many points of possible attack.

And so I think people need to take a robust view in terms of participating in the media and telling the truth of their brand or their policy or whatever it is.

But at the same time, it’s so hard to predict what might access.

00:20:20 Heather Blundell

Speaking a little bit more about social media and people are more likely to search for information on social media than in newspapers. Yeah, they say they trust traditional media more. Are you concerned? Newspapers may simply die out and what must traditional media do to keep audiences engaged?

00:20:40 Sam McAlister

Well, I think traditional media is trying its best. You know, the problem is you’re always five years behind. Do you know? So obviously at the stage at which papers went digital, that was like, ohh, we’re sure.

I mean, we I remember when we got an Instagram account, that news and I think it lasted about 3 days. Yeah. When we got a, we got a Twitter account as it was called then everyone was like, wow. So the problem with the word traditional is that obviously the traditional media is quite traditional. And so it tends to be older and obviously staffed largely by people who are older and don’t have the same skill sets. But when it moved to digital and then pay walls.

And then obviously, I think the important thing is not to be a snob about the way that people consume my view on. It was always really bust, robust if you watched the 48 minutes of the Prince Andrew interview on BBC 2 when it was on Newsnight special programme fan taste. If you saw a meme of Prince Andrew talking about sweaty pizzas. Yeah, also fantastic because what that means is that our journal coming culturally relevant is becoming culturally relevant. So I think what’s important for traditional media is to not be a snob about where its stuff learns. If a 16 year old kid reads one line of something from an interview that you did. That’s still landing, and it’s still relevant and maybe next time they read two things. Maybe they might watch the programme, so I think just not being snobby about the way that information is passed between the generations is very, very important. So Newsnight on TikTok, Newsnight, the podcast, yeah, Newsnight on Instagram, whatever it is, just remain agile and don’t.

00:22:20 Heather Blundell

I wonder if anyone else at the BBC would have seen it like that because it was already not so big, wasn’t it? That it was almost too big? Yes. And the fact that it’s probably one of the most sort of prevalent means of all time, those quotes and things from that interview is probably not you know what they would have asked for, right?

00:22:37 Sam McAlister

That’s the legacy, isn’t it? I remember getting on the taxi after the interview happened, and normally I would be in a bus, but you know.

We had we had this like piece of tech and the producer, Jake Morris, who was so they they put you in the car off. Yeah, cause actually gone and all going at the car. She’s not going anywhere. And the piece of Jake Morris and the deputy editor, Stuart McLean at the time, you know. And I remember them talking about some of the news lines and I remember just saying you know it’s going to be Peter smoking and it’s going to be no sweat and the next night Ant and Dec on I’m A Celebrity. They mentioned it. Yeah. And I was like, this is Newsnight’s biggest moment. But it’s right now we are culturally relevant. Yeah. And that probably had not happened before. So in a big organisation, of course, there are so many concerns about legal issues.

Well, welcome to modern life. Yeah, and have no control. So let’s at least try and get some coverage with it there you want viewers.

00:23:38 Heather Blundell

At the same time, audiences want less AI in their news. Yet media organisations are under budget and headcount pressures. How can traditional journalism continue to deliver high quality investigative reporting that sets it apart from AI?

00:23:52 Sam McAlister

I think ultimately there is not any AI at the moment that can, you know, go undercover or spend three years out in the middle of Jehovah I can see.

You know, I I think at the moment it’s just not a thing for that specialised area because it requires so much human interaction. I think to the more kind of bog standard rewriting of a, forgive me. A press release. Yeah. You’ve been given by someone. You don’t need a journalist for that. But in a sense, what it does is it reminds people of what time the specialism is and it’s important for those people who do that work. Find the story and to find the story and keep on trying. But it’s obviously challenging and frightening for an entire sector that feels that it’s under attack as many sectors do, yeah.

00:24:37 Heather Blundell

And the final section of our of our report is around tribes. Uh, which we talked about upfront. And our research shows that Farage and Corbyn are perceived as the most human leaders and are connecting strongly with younger audiences on social media. If you were chief of staff to the Prime Minister, what would you advise him to do to shake off his robotic label?

00:24:59 Sam McAlister

I’ve always had the view on the tribe front that there are two types of politicians, head politicians and heart politicians. And similarly two types of issues, head issues and heart issues. So that’s why I really understand Brexit or Trump or Farage or Corbyn. These are heart politicians. Yeah, the head is not really a relevant consideration. It’s someone you would enjoy a steak with. You’d enjoy a beer with, you’d enjoy a cigar with. You’d enjoy. Like, I don’t know. It’s a night at the pub with. And so the policies are Keir Starmer’s problem is he is not someone that anyone thinks they would enjoy a night they have with wear or a cigar with and they wouldn’t wanna spend not even a night at the pub, but possibly half an hour even. And so his real challenge is that all he has is the head element. So the expectation is he is a calm, seemingly decent man trying hard in quite a boring way to do important work, so we need to make that the offering we can’t pretend to be charismatic, or particularly since eating. But I am a calm man who can steer this country in difficult times. Here are my five key policies, which should have been set out before the Election Day one. We should know what kiers Britain looks like. Yeah, and kiers Britain is calm. It’s kind, it’s decent. It’s thoughtful, it’s important. It’s hard working.

I don’t receive any of those messages from him, but if I was working with him, those are the messages I’d be working on and drop the Sir.

00:26:35 Heather Blundell

Do you think it’s boring us a bit. Do we miss that heart?

00:26:39 Sam McAlister

I think it’s worse than boring. I think he’s completely lacking any impact other than when it’s the wrong kind of impact. So I mean, I’m lucky enough I do some broadcasting. Yeah, and whenever you go on, there’s a U-turn. And really the problem is when you haven’t worked out what the proposition is you’re just basically playing catch up all the time because the time in opposition should have been spent setting up. Here’s Britain. Yeah, and day one, instead of these oscillations, these U turns, this should have been thought about. It should have been thought about what impact it would or wouldn’t have. The variable should have been discussed. And so when things went wrong.

It would have been a predictable outcome and they would have had things in place prior to it going wrong to make sure it didn’t happen or they would have reacted in a more robust or able way. Yeah, because they’re what they sound. So I think the lack of what that vision is what’s making.

In governing very hard, so governing is the opposite. The Reform Party, isn’t it? Yes. Yeah, it’s weirdly, it’s weirdly chaotic. Yeah, and it should be calm. Yes. Cool. No, that’s it. Yeah. Non chaotic. Yes. And in a sense, that’s what Nigel Farage is doing so well. Yeah. Is he’s. He’s beautiful chaos. He offers a vision of this country that people can understand.

I mean, they’re there. Yeah. And it makes them feel there are no policies supported. But we do understand. Yeah, there’s a feeling. And that feeling is the brand. And the feeling is whatever we think of that feeling, the feeling is my country will be great. I can feel proud of my country. I can be proud of who I am and the feeling that Keir is giving is not any of those things. And the feeling that he’s yeah, we’re losing it. Yeah. Is that we’re losing it and we’re irrelevant.

00:28:17 Heather Blundell

Final question, what is your single prediction for the future of the media?

00:28:25 Sam McAlister

I think really the prediction is that it’s change or die. Yeah. And I think that the change element has to be taken with great humility. If you are still available in some way on TikTok. If someone is writing about you disparagingly in the Daily Mail. That is a win.

I mean my biggest win ever was when the Daily Mail spent about four pages slagging off an interview I’d done. Everyone else was like, Oh my God. And I was like, this is a win because the Daily Mail is relevant. Yeah. And it does great journalism, and it’s just a different type of journalism. So humility change or chow.

00:29:02 Heather Blundell

What had you done in that interview?

00:29:04 Sam McAlister

Well, that interview was with Reverend Flowers. Do you remember him? He was known as the Crystal Methodist.

On the first interview with him after he’d been involved allegedly with rent boy, yes, whilst being a man of faith and Jeremy did an interview with him which was perceived as a soft interview and the male did 4 brilliant pages of coverage with pictures slagging us off. Yes, and obviously the views went up so perfect being slagged off is still being talked about. And in the current climate.

This has to be a lot worse.

00:29:42 Heather Blundell

Thank you, Sam, for such a fascinating discussion as always and for bringing your perspective to the launch of our truth trust and Tribes report. My pleasure.

 

 

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